I trust Sam Adams is operating under the nom de plume of the former NFL player. Otherwise not only is it a misnomer, but also betrays a rather heavy ego itself. I struggle to think Mr. Adams would have been one to suppress dissent.

If AS intends to be something more than an attempt to increase the Church of Fred then it needs to unfuck itself quick, fast and in a hurry. I can shoot rifleman on the AQT and I did shoot expert in the Corps. But I’ve been to an AS and watched an entire line struggle. I know several people now who have been to multiple AS events and still haven’t scored rifleman. When the class fails, it’s the teacher’s fault. If you want to run around with your head in the sand then you do a disservice to the mission Dear Leader Fred regurgitates in every Shotgun News. We are marching into brave times and we will need a nation of riflemen. Put your own feel bads aside for a minute and think duty first. If your classes are not cranking out more riflemen then you need to improve yourself and the program. If you refuse then you are hurting the cause regardless of how much time you volunteer. For those that volunteer, thank you. But again, duty first. If you can’t teach people to shoot, you need to step down. If everytime I went to volunteer to feed the homeless I undercooked the meat and got people sick then I should do something else with my time.

If you are teaching “pumpkin on a post” — you are wrong.
If you are primarily teaching loop slings — you are wrong.
If you are putting people through a rapid fire string when they can’t group — you are wrong. The last I looked, “My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count.”

There is absolutely no excuse for a single instructor to not be aware of sight adjustments on an AR15! If you’re an instructor, get a cheat sheet and familiarize yourself with how to operate the most common rifles you run into. There is no excuse for instructors giving a shooter grief for arriving with an MBR instead of a .22lr.

AS has stepped up and filled a badly needed gap in our society. But if you’re going to do a job, do it right. As it stands now though, you guys out there with sand in your clits everytime you hear criticisms (and hers was with a painfully soft glove) sound like a bunch of Scientologists.

I think he calls himself “Sam Adams” cuz he’s under the influence…

Slings on an AR15/M16? There’s a reason the military does NOT teach the “carrying strap” on the AR as a shooting aid, the sling is attached directly to the barrel, the constant tension can actually damage the barrel. (If you’re doing it right.) (As described to me by Drill Sergeant Dailey, who was a bullseye competitor when he was pushing recruits. He also left some stylistic variations up to us, i.e., leg straight, leg bent, do what works best for you.) And, as noted in the SWAT article you quoted, the sling is not that useful in the context of today’s tactical doctrine.
I didn’t have much interest in attending an Appleseed event anyway, as I had the impression it was primarily directed toward target shooting, and it has become clear that I was correct. Apparently, some feel that they are teaching The One True Way, and I prefer to avoid those who think like that.

True dat, re the sling on a standard AR-15, although I do think that hasty sling technique is useful for offhand shooting in general. With a 16″ heavy barrel, I believe, based on nothing but guessing, that the sling tension won’t shift POI enough to cancel out the value of steadying the gun.

A few comments, some more relevant than others:

1. Military shooting isn’t magically different from any other kind. Skills are skills. In 1940, after about a decade’s absence, Elmer Keith showed up at Camp Perry with a group of guys who came to be called “a bunch of coyote hunters from Idaho.” They blew away all but a very few of the US military’s top riflemen. Some dedicated prairie dog hunters can shoot as well as a military sniper can — snipers learn how to do it without being seen, which is a whole other set of skills.

I welcome feedback on my shooting technique from anyone who cares to comment on it, because I love to learn and improve. However, what I REALLY crave learning from USMC-trained combat veterans like The Inconvenience and DRZinn is how to move — how to use cover, how to move as a coordinated group, how to avoid detection, essentially how not to get shot.

That leads me to a general comment: military trappings on a beginner’s rifle class are just show, little different from cowboy action clothing. CAS shooters, however, know that they’re doing it for fun. When instructors start confusing style with substance, I think that’s a problem.

2. Obviously, I agree with everyone who thinks it makes no sense to make someone who can’t yet hit the bullseye slowly, start spraying bullets quickly. Rapid fire really involves the same skills as slow fire, but with faster target acquisition and reacquisition. To build any skill, one must have the foundation upon which to build it, or he/she is just wasting time and money — and hard-wiring poor technique, which is even worse.

3. What exactly is the point of beginners doing magazine-change practice while live firing? See #2: it’s a waste of bullets. You can practice that at home, later. Even so, if you’re not using the gun you ultimately want to train for, it’s a net negative.

For example, why learn mag changes on a 10/22? Do you fear an imminent ground squirrel attack? They resemble AR mag changes in no way whatsoever. Mini-14/30 and M1A/M14 mag changes are different, yet again. You might as well practice stuffing en bloc clips into a Garand or stripper-clip loading a Mauser. They’re about as similar.

4. The loop sling is a neat thing to learn, but it’s hardly a fundamental skill. If a beginner can spend a couple of days, and come out able to shoot a magazine into the target in question at a reasonable rate, that’s enough.

5. IMO the 10/22 sucks. I currently own 5 other .22 rifles, but I sold my 10/22. It was a finicky, inaccurate POS that got dirty way too fast. The choice was to go along with the 10/22 cult and make it a money hole, or ditch it.. Some people pour money into them until they shoot straight and feed right, but I’d rather spend that money on a good rifle.

I guess I could say more, but I’ll shut up now.:-)

What is “pumpkin on a post,” and what is wrong with it? (I think I got the rest)

The “pumpkin on a post” or “6-o’clock hold” is a trick used by paper target competitors using traditional bullseye targets.

Say you’re shooting an NRA pistol target at 25 yards, with a 5.5″ black circle. You’re not allowed to add a neon dot sticker to the center of the target.

So, you have a black sight post on a black target. Where’s the center?

To make it easier, you sight the gun in so it shoots 2.75″ high at 25 yards. Then, you can put the black front sight exactly on the transition between white and black on the target paper, underneath the bullseye. This makes it easier to see and line up the sights and the target.

It doesn’t work well for any other kind of shooting. Obviously, a home intruder, a deer, or an enemy soldier won’t be at a neatly predefined distance, and won’t have a black circle of a known size where you want to shoot.

Appleseed is not a close combat shooting school. They don’t teach squad tactics. The don’t teach calling in air support. If that’s the training you want, then you’re going to the wrong place.

Appleseed is primarily a basic marksmanship course. There’s no use dressing up like a tactical assassin if you can’t hit anything. It is designed to teach shooters basic skills so they can apply them to engage targets out to 500 yards with iron sights. The smallest error when engaging a target at 500 yards means you missed. It probably means a miss even at 300 yards. So the program is first and foremost teaching basic marksmanship so the shooter can develop a consistent and repeatable technique.

Now to some specific points. At Appleseed if you want to shoot point of aim/point of impact you can do so. That’s how I shot my Rifleman score. I don’t use the 6 o’clock hold and the instructors didn’t care as long as I was hitting the target. Some people find the 6 o’clock hold easier for engaging the smaller targets especially if they have very poor iron sights that cover up a large part of the target if you are doing center hold. If this is not a problem on your rifle, then by all means do the center hold. Then again, if you shoot 6 o’clock hold on a man sized torso you are going to drill them with the bullet as well. Whatever works. Not everyone has nice crisp military aperture sights on their weapons and the program tries to adapt to what the shooter brings.

The program has to accommodate a wide variety of people from rank beginners to advanced shooters looking to improve. I was in the latter category and my shooting improved remarkably in this program by using a sling and now even without a sling I can shoot much better than before I went to the Appleseed. Yes, the rapid fire is challenging, but it’s a goal to work towards. Yes, the magazine changes are challenging when you have a short time period to do them, but that’s another goal to work towards. You can’t say that Appleseed isn’t geared towards combat use but then complain when they drill you on exercises that have direct combat applications (such as shooting under pressure and dealing with magazine changes). But because there are so many shooters you are going to have people that think it is too fast or too slow. That’s just how these things have to work out even if you go to a week long combat shooting school. As an advanced shooter, I found the pace way too slow but I don’t complain about it because it’s obvious they are working with many students of different levels and they need to accommodate all of them.

The loop sling. Well I never used it before Appleseed, but now if I get the chance to loop up to engage a distant target I will do so. Would I loop up to engage anything 300 yards or less? Probably not. But 300 yards and plus? I probably would. At 400+ yards a sling is highly desirable if you aren’t shooting from a platform or bipod.

Beginners can learn a solid fundamental shooting technique by going to an Appleseed event. Too many people are worrying about ninja rolling over cars while shooting with an assault rifle in each hand and not worrying enough about hitting things. If you can’t hold a 1″ group at 25M then you probably should worry about your basic rifle skills and not how many tactical reloads you can pull off in a minute after spraying the targets in a room clearing exercise.

Mister Sam Adams. As I feel everything else was covered sufficiently, I will simply tell you that you lack class, sir.

Hi Laurel,

re: “Appleseed teaches what was once taught by the US military. It does not teach what is currently taught by the USMC for use with the M16 platform. Since I use a M16 style rifle, I really don’t think it’s that crazy to want to learn modern marksmanship applicable to my modern rifle.”

Appleseed tries to accommodate anyone with any rifle. I’ve shot Rifleman scores with my AR on my own without a problem after going to an Appleseed whereas before I probably couldn’t have done it. Secondly, the AR is not a great platform to use with a sling because of how the AR functions. It’s got a horrible front attachment point and putting on too much pressure will pull the barrel and affect accuracy. It can be done, but you can’t sling up tightly. Shooting at the shorter distance that the AR is really designed to deal with (200-300 yards max) a sling is probably not needed on any rifle other than maybe a hasty sling. But if you really need to take an accurate shot at 400 yards with the AR, then a sling can be used to good effect with care. I like my AR, but it has limitations vs. other rifles (and vice versa).

The Appleseed program has two days to teach people. Most won’t shoot Rifleman scores in two days of condensed training unless they already are good shots to begin with. Seems only about 10% of shooters will score Rifleman at an Appleseed, let alone their first one. Most people need to go home with the skills and practice on their own before they can do it. Anything worth learning is probably going to be hard and makes it all the sweeter when you finally do make your goal. The Rifleman score is not designed to be easy. It’s designed to get you to a baseline of good marksmanship under basic field positions.

Will two days of training make you expert? No. But will it enable you to go home and practice and become competent? Yes. The program gives people the basics and then it’s up to them. You brought up learning to play guitar. Any instrument learning is done the same way: You have time in the classroom and then you go home to practice where the majority of your learning will actually happen. Two days (or even two months) of guitar training won’t land you in a rock band.

The funny thing that the Appleseeders miss on with regards to their program of basic marksmanship is summed up like this:

- They teach basic marksmanship
- They hint at combat marksmanship, but outright deny it when faced with facts to the contrary.
- Sling use is not currently employed by any major military for their troops with rifles.
- Sling use is only widespread in the sport-shooting community.

Combat marksmanship takes place in one of two broad ranges:
1. Close range.
At this range, no sling use is practical due to the time involved. Shooters are moving, reloading, and generally being active. Putting a sling in a movement restrictive position would be counter-intuitive, and potentially deadly.

2. Long range.
At this range, a smart shooter will use a brace in his/her physical surroundings to steady the shot. The Appleseed program would do well to show some braced positions where the rifle is propped up on something as this is how troops use it in actual combat. This method also benefits hunters.

And to all those that feel the act of resting your rifle is just easy and a “way out” of proper shooting – get over it. The supported position is not automatic to learn. The other positions are good, too. But seriously, if I ever have to take a shot against the enemy at over about 150 yards, I am going to do it from a supported position. Why? Because if I can’t, then I’ll be in a close range combat situation in mere moments and then those rules will apply!

I’ve never been in a war, but something else also occurs to me.

As a civilian, if I’m ever pressed into service by events, I’m going to be facing an adversary with armor, artillery and air support.

I’m not going to take a shot at an enemy soldier from over 400 yards with my AR-15, because there’s a word for that.

It’s called “drawing fire.”

Okay, two words…

“- Sling use is only widespread in the sport-shooting community.”

If you are instructing people to engage targets 4-500 yards away and you have a sling then it can be used to support the weapon. A braced position can be used, but again there are many things that you simply can’t cover in two days. The program also doesn’t teach rice paddy prone and other shooting positions. But at some point you need to draw the line or the two day program can become a two month program.

And you know what? If I can shoot well with a sling to equal a braced position why is that a bad thing? When I get in a braced position now with a bipod or sand bag it’s all gravy. It’s not even a challenge because I already know I can hit that target unsupported with just a piece of 1 1/4″ webbing supporting me. If anything, sling use has made me a much better long range shooter on a support. Far better in fact.

“I’m not going to take a shot at an enemy soldier from over 400 yards with my AR-15, because there’s a word for that.”

I think engaging anyone at 400+ yards with the AR-15 is a mistake. The 5.56 round loses a lot of guts at that range and is completely worthless once they start running for cover.

Also, current and past guerilla conflicts have shown that engaging troop columns with small arms is still remarkably effective and demoralizing. The tactics of a guerilla fighter are not going to be the same as those of a trained soldier. Why would you want to fight on their terms when they are better equipped to do that type of fighting? It’s not called “Drawing Fire” it’s called “Shoot and Scoot” which is you take your shots and you take your leave. You don’t wait around for artillery to get called in on your head.

There are schools that spend an entire week teaching rifle tactics at 100 yards and less. Then they have another week long program for rifles that are 200-600 yards. Then they have another week long program that is 600+ yards. Then they have programs for rifles with scopes. Then rifles without scopes. Then programs on clearing houses. Etc. These are fine programs, but even these instructors realize that there is only so much you can do in the time given. You can teach short range rifle tactics or you can teach long range rifle tactics. But you’re not going to teach both in a reasonable amount of time. I’ve been to some of these training schools and I see military/LE types show up with great gear and the latest in tactical jargon who couldn’t hit a steel plate consistently at 100 yards and completely flubbed it at 200 yards. They didn’t need more tactical training. What they needed was to build their marksmanship skills. If you don’t like the sling that’s fine. You can still shoot without it and use the other skills gained. If you want to do tactical reloads in your own practice nobody really cares. Want to do braced shooting? Ok that’s a fine skill to practice for your equipment. But expecting these and everything else to be rammed into a weekend class is not realistic nor constructive.

Appleseed will teach you to be a better marksman. This other stuff is just icing on the cake. Only hits count and I’ve seen a lot of people who talk a great game but can’t consistently hit worth a damn. You can hang all the tactical lasers, lights and scopes on your gun all day long, but I’ve never seen any of that stuff make someone a good marksman. Only practicing good marksmanship skills make you a good marksman. Appleseed can teach you to be a good marksman.

The delusion that “shoot” is important as important as “scoot” doesn’t survive a single game of paintball.

Sure, a sniper risks his life for that one shot at a strategically important single target. If you’re shooting to demoralize and disorient, then it’s unwise to die for one shot.

Before pulling the trigger, one must have a bulletproof plan for how he’s going to “scoot” to safety, and fast. Slinging up isn’t all that compatible with scooting.

We’re talking about drawing fire from artillery, machine guns, and helicopters here. You’ll have more than one chance to shoot, but only one chance to scoot.

oops: “is as important”

Thinking back on it, the thing that strikes me as funny and misguided about Appleseed is the idea that we’re actually going to use rifles if the government goes bad, just because that’s what we used (well…muskets actually) in 1775. If you’re really concerned about enabling a civilian population to resist military occupation you’d probably spend just as much time, if not more, teaching them how to make bombs and IED’s. People look at you funny though if you run a “Second Amendment IED clinic”.

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