Appleseed, Part the Second
This will be my review of the Appleseed experience, based mostly on my personal experience on Saturday, but also on the thoughts of some other folks I’ve talked to, as well as a synthesis of my combined impression from two Appleseeds. My general account of the day’s activities is here.
Let me reiterate that I very much like the concept of the Appleseed Project. I like that they’re getting folks out to the range.
The first place I butt heads with the implementation, however, may well be the result of false expectations on my part. Based on the branding of the Appleseed Project: the Minuteman for a logo, talking about “a nation of riflemen,” the strong emphasis on the history of April 19, 1775 (when American colonists started, you know, shooting at their oppressors), the obvious link between gun rights and liberty, shooting the Army Qualifying Test, and so forth, I was under the impression the variety of marksmanship taught at an Appleseed clinic would translate to, well, combat shooting.
Let me be very clear: Nowhere have I read, or heard, anyone suggesting Appleseed would teach me actual combat skills. I did not expect to learn room-clearing. I was just under the impression that the type of fundamental marksmanship they were teaching would be the type you’d want a modern armed citizenry to learn and build upon with the ultimate goal of being able to defend their lives and rights if necessary.
I am not an expert, but based on a) what The Inconvenience has told me about modern USMC marksmanship education, and b) what I’ve read online, the type of marksmanship the Appleseed Project is teaching is somewhat dated and more suited to sport shooting than to development of combat-practical marksmanship.
I’ve also learned via observation that saying Appleseed instruction has anything to do with sport shooting will cause apoplectic fits, so let me say this: The Inconvenience went through USMC basic training in 1999. He learned to shoot with a hasty sling (vs. loop sling – edit: they did use the loop sling for 500yd prone work, which is 10rds/10mins), with a center hold (vs. six-o’clock), and he shot expert. It probably has more to do with civilian safety rules than method, but he also began his timed portions with the rifle in condition one, not with his mags on the ground. Folks are saying the Appleseed method was modeled on USMC marksmanship training, and maybe it that’s true – but apparently it’s not what they’re teaching anymore.
I’m interested in learning modern techniques just like I’m interested in using a modern rifle. There is a difference between “in the tradition of” and “traditional.” I understood their talk about traditional marksmanship to mean marksmanship with traditional application: Hunting, target shooting, and defense if necessary. Apparently, they literally mean traditional marksmanship, as in old-fashioned.
Which, of course, is just fine – as long as that’s what you’re looking for. And, when it comes to educating people who wouldn’t otherwise be getting any experience at all, it’s certainly better than nothing! For me, it’s not the type of foundation I’m building. I’d rather work with a hasty sling and have my rifle zeroed for a defensive/combat-usable hold. I guess you could say I’m more interested in continuing the tradition of American marksmanship with modern tools and weapons than I am in literally continuing to shoot traditional rifles in traditional ways.
So, again, that may just be a personal difference, but I think it’s one worth pointing out. And maybe I should start saving my pennies for a trip to Gunsite. (That is one very awesome thing about Appleseed – it’s CHEAP. Free for women, even.)
My second, and probably biggest, beef with the program is the tempo. I absolutely do not think it’s a good idea to take people who are shooting 4″ groups at 25m (that’s like, 16MOA if you’re keeping score) and put them on a timer. With transitions. And mag changes. Obviously those are valuable skills. I do not think they are as valuable as establishing a solid sense of accuracy first, though. The Appleseed course is billed as being friendly to beginners, and while the skills taught may be, the time in which they are taught is, in my opinion, not.
The timed stages weren’t the only problem, though. The woman to the left of me on the line had a mini-14. She was struggling with her sling. She wasn’t hearing mag prep commands, either. We could have both benefited from longer prep periods – at least occasionally – or a dedicated rifle-adjustment period. I think everyone there could have benefited from a good 10 minutes of dry-fire practice or so after being shown a new position. I think walking us all through “firing by the numbers” – slowly, as we actually fired – would have been a good thing.
When you’re trying to hammer home the simple rules of marksmanship, pushing shooters to mental and physical fatigue and introducing time constraints is not a very good way to allow them to relax, take deep breaths, and develop good habits, which should be priority numero uno. Priority numero dos can be introducing challenges.
The instructors make it clear the Appleseed is not a competition with anyone other than yourself, but for a new shooter, even that competition can be frustrating and demoralizing. I felt this more at my first Appleseed shoot; at this one, I was more comfortable with my rifle and knew what to expect. I felt for the woman next to me, though, because she didn’t sound like she was having any fun, or even really understanding all of the material. The last thing I want is people, especially new(ish) shooters, thinking shooting isn’t fun, or going home confused.
I think the program could really benefit from shifting tempo the first day to a much slower, reinforcing style of instruction. Rather than throwing an idea out there and really not revisiting it save shouted reminders to “Remember to shoot by the numbers!” – how about day one working on true fundamentals, and day two doing speed increases and so forth? I guess there is a certain concern that people won’t come back for day two, so they’ll miss that, but it’s my opinion that a lot of people don’t come back for day two because of the mental fatigue and frustration.
I chose not to attend day two because I felt like it would honestly be a waste of ammo. (Maybe this alone is a valid reason to shoot the clinic with .22LR?) I don’t learn well in an environment where I don’t get any time to allow what I just learned to sink in. I knew that, given the time to implement them properly, I could improve my shooting using some of the things I was learning. Without having that time, I wasn’t showing any improvement (and was, in some cases, regressing!) and felt I could accomplish more on Sunday with 20 rounds at the home range than I could with 200 on day two of the Appleseed.
I did, incidentally, accomplish quite a bit on Sunday with 20 rounds and the help of The Inconvenience. One of the friends who went to the range was us was actually an acquaintance I’d run into at the Appleseed. It was his third attempt at the program. He opted not to go to day two, either, for many of the same reasons I’m outlining. After heeding some of The Inconvenience’s USMC-brand advice, his groups tightened up more than ever. Was it better information? Low-pressure shooting? Environmental changes? I think a combination of all of the above.
I absolutely do not dispute the validity of rapid fire shooting or mag changes – as someone who just declared her interest in combat-translatable skills, of course I want to develop those abilities. I also want to develop low-light shooting skills, shooting while fatigued, and shooting in other less-than-ideal conditions. But for crying out loud, one thing at a time. I’d rather start with five shots in five minutes and make all of them, than five shots in 50 seconds and make none. I guarantee I can progress faster and learn more if I start with five minutes and gradually reduce it to 50 seconds than if I just keep scrambling and hoping to improve within those 50 seconds. And, well, if the Zombiepocalypse comes tomorrow and I never got the chance to get good at rapid fire, I guess y’all can shoot me in the kneecap and let me be bait.
A third, more minor suggestion I’d have for the Appleseed coordinators is establishing a baseline level of instructor familiarity with common rifles. In my experience, there was the thing about front sight post adjustment vs. rear elevation. Then, when I asked a couple of them if anyone had a buttstock wrench, I was asked if I meant a screwdriver, or pliers. Another AR owner finally produced one. Of course, it’s the rifle user’s responsibility to know his or her own rifle, but in an environment where you’re probably to see a lot of borrowed rifles, it would be good if they could offer up a little more assistance.
I also noticed a slight undercurrent of… disdain may be too strong a word, but there was basically something off about their response to people who were shooting >.22LR. The Appleseed Project is promoting the use of what they call the Liberty Training Rifle, and I think it’s a great idea. However, I think using your main battle rifle, if you can, is a better idea. I’d rather see people using their M14s/FALs/ARs than 10/22s, but I’d rather see them using 10/22s than not shooting. In other words, encouraging .22LR to increase participation is fine, but don’t discourage NATO calibers just because .22LR is becoming more common, or cheaper. It should be up to the shooter, unless there are range constraints on caliber. (And while I didn’t hear it firsthand, the third-timer said he caught a little bit of flak for his FAL. Not surprised, because the Appleseed folks seem to be M14 fanboys with a side of 10/22 love, but come on. Leave that argument for the internet, guys.)
I’m also not sure why they’re encouraging dry-fire practice and .22LR simultaneously – I’ve always been taught not to dry-fire rimfire weapons. Maybe I missed something.
In my Googling around, I noticed I’m not the only one offering up suggestions for Appleseed. Okay, some folks just hate it altogether. Others, like USAGI in the Arfcom thread, have a lot of the same thoughts and suggestions I do. (He’s apparently a 25-year instructor, too, so that reassures me I’m not completely talking out my ass on this.) Breda talked about the frustration aspect, but it also sounds like she’ll go back, because she’s a gunnie and that’s what we do. That’s why I tried again.
And that’s what I want to close with. I’m not writing this to piss in Appleseed’s Cheerios. I don’t want it to fail. I want it to be a resounding success, something I can point anyone and everyone to as the go-to crash-course in marksmanship. Right now, I feel like I can offer up a review to my gun-loving friends, give them an idea what to expect, and let them decide. Some would go, some wouldn’t, some would like it, some wouldn’t.
But, in it’s current incarnation, I would not take a new shooter to an Appleseed shoot – especially one of their target demographics: women. Period. It’s too much, too fast. It’s competitive, intimidating, frustrating, and sometimes downright physically punishing. For someone without at least some established confidence in their shooting ability, and the understanding that it’s an ongoing process of refinement – not just something you’re good at or not – I think it could cause irreparable damage to a budding interest in marksmanship.
To the person sure to come on here and say “Oh, yeah, well if you know so much, why don’t you start your own program?” – shut up. Really. I try to take new people to the range whenever I can. I offer fun and Tannerite to foster interest and to demonstrate just how fun shooting can be, and work up from there. The Inconvenience gives just about the best fifteen-minute basics of marksmanship talk I could imagine, and is more than happy to watch folks shoot and help them refine their methods. I’ve offered my unofficial services to the women’s center and gay and lesbian alliance on campus, as well as worked for our concealed carry on campus efforts. Right now I need to get in touch with a local lady, who was going to put me in touch with some other women who would like to learn the basics from a female instructor. I’m considering getting NRA and Utah certified to teach. If I had more money and resources, I’d love to start a national program as successful as Appleseed. But, hey, rather than reinventing the wheel, how about people learn to take constructive criticism and improve what already exists, instead of having to say “Fine, I’ll do it MY way!” and fragment into a million different efforts?
That’s why I wrote this review. I hate to see a great opportunity squandered, but I fear Appleseed won’t expand outside the already-present gun culture if they don’t make some improvements over the current methodology. And that, my friends, would make me a sad panda.
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My father is a Marine and for a time was a team shooter, instructor, and in later civilian life spent several dozen kids (12-17) around the Port Angeles area how to shoot. From helping him and knowing what I do about his methods (which are admittedly geared towards match shooting) I really have to shake my head at what you’ve written here. The gap between mastering sight alignment and jumping into rapid fire is usually measured in days or weeks if you want to practice or master it. I’m not convinced it’s all that possible to learn to shoot well in just a weekend. And I’m not sure this is the best way to improve the technique of an existing shooter, either.
I’m not sure what, if any, difference there is between training for match shooting vs. training for combat shooting, since I’ve never trained for combat shooting. Knowing how to use a hasty sling instead of a loop sling is probably most of it. We actually went by USMC basic rifle instruction as well (even got the videocassettes) but we used loop slings, air rifles and .22’s for initial training and then alongside the AR (we didn’t have consistent access to a high-power range), and the political indoctrination and history lessons were pretty much restrained to any offhand remarks my dad may or may not have made :)
Long story short, I can’t imagine Appleseed being very useful.
Thanks for participating in an Appleseed shoot and for posting a thoughtful write-up.
One thing to consider with your interest in combat shooting – you still need the fundamentals and that is what Appleseed is about – teaching the fundamentals of rifle shooting and our American heritage. I encourage all who come to an Appleseed to take additional training – I think that you’ll find that the position steady hold factors and the 6 steps of firing the shot translate very well to other rifle shooting activities.
Frank, thanks for commenting. I definitely agree with your last sentence – NPOA and the six steps are very good habits, and if anything I’d like to see more time spent on slowly reinforcing them.
I don’t even disagree that the emphasis on loop slings and six o’clock holds were, at one time, standard military protocol (though I’m not that familiar with the history of military marksmanship, so I can’t verify it, either). It’s just my understanding that it’s not the way it’s done today, and as I’m using a modern rifle, I’m trying to find what works best for both me and my machinery.
[Full disclosure: A few years ago, I was brand new to the gun culture and learned how to really shoot my rifle by drinking from the Appleseed firehose - and am now Instructor with the program.]
Great comments Laurel. Constructive criticism is never a bad thing. The pace is always the most challenging part of a shoot – there’s so much to cram into very little time, espeicially in the winter months when the sun sets earlier. Regarding the pace, too fast and some shooters get frustrated, but too slow and other shooters get bored. I’ve seen both your frustration with the pace being fast and at the same time, others being frustrated with it being too slow. That’s why the pace of each individual Appleseed shoot is slightly different and up to the discretion of the Shoot Boss. I encourage you to send your constructive feedback to the Shoot Boss from your shoot – if you don’t have their contact info, send me an email and I can find it for you.
I’d like to underscore that Wesley’s honest response is pretty par for the course with AS volunteers I’ve met. Which is awesome.
For a volunteer based org, they really do have some pretty good people trying to do good things. That does go a long way.
Earl was there, and I know how to touch bases with “Pa Rah” on the Appleseed forum, so I’ll probably join up and say hi. I didn’t want to take my possibly-perceived-as-negative comments over there, as a) it’s their house and b) I’d read they wouldn’t be particularly well-received.
Those of you commenting here, though, seem much more interested in constructive criticism than I was led to believe, so I’m less wary of offering up my opinions now. For better or worse. :)
Your experience is pretty much what I remember. Though our round counts were much higher and I was shooting a 10/22 (short range restrictions and very tight quarters).
The 2/8 load setup is a Garand thing BTW. No, that isn’t especially helpful. ;) It also underscores your traditional vs. traditional dichotomy comments. Some things in Appleseed are done “because” and that is a bit grating.
As somebody that has done a bit of non-shooting instruction and comes from teacher parents, I also agree with everything you have said regarding instruction format. Frustration does not lead to performance no mater how many reps or yelling is done. But I will offer a slightly different solution to the Appleseed folks – tell us what is next and WHY before setting us up.
I was frustrated because I didn’t feel like I understood the reason for an exercise. Why are we doing this one? Shoot it. Optional repeat. Then get told what that exercise is supposed to show while changing targets and prepping (wait, how many?) mags for the next thing. Wrong order guys. And way too much information from a fire hose.
Also make clear that Appleseed will not take you from 0-60 in two days. That’s bad marketing I suppose but it’s honest. The goal, I think, should be to walk you down the road at about about 10mph, making clear the track is twisty and bumpy, head back at about 15mph, pointing out the particularly gnarly ruts and holes one more time, and then make sure you have a good map when you leave for home.
The slam bang rote routine you had was the same as mine and just as frustrating. It also left precious little but more slam bang rote for day 2 which just screamed lost opportunities to me.
Finally, Appleseed suffers the same fundamental problem all volunteer organizations have; people with the specific skills and passion a .org needs are rare and likely to be the same people with 1000 other projects using their time. The guys that ran our AS were pretty good given that, but you do get what you pay for and I’m not sure this is a fixable problem.
Having said all that, I’ll likely go again. Range time! A training goal! Other gunnies! With proper self-adjustment of expectation, Appleseed is better than staying home.
Thanks for all your comments. I plan on talking to the Appleseed folks further and offering up some of these suggestions, so this is both helpful in distilling my thoughts into concise points and letting me know I’m not nuts.
Well, I am nuts, but… nevermind. ;)
The funny thing is, I was just telling The Inconvenience I’d probably go again, too! As much as they say it’s not a competition, that’s how I’ve come to look at it. I mean – if I score x-points on a scored, timed, four-stage target, I win the title of Rifleman. That’s a competition.
So, just like if I took up cowboy action, I’m looking at Appleseed shooting as one type of shooting I can do, with one specific goal. I can’t imagine it ever being my primary style or focus as a shooter, but I don’t need to exclude it from my repertoire.
Interesting review and comments. Thanks All.
I think you’re pretty right on with your comments about Appleseed. I have been to two, and the quality of the instructors varies a lot – I think this could be why some folks have such different reactions to the program.
The first shoot I went to had 4 instructors and 9 shooters, we got a LOT of individual attention, and the instructors really knew what they were talking about. They told us what target we were going to shoot, and why, and then we did it.
The second shoot had about 15 shooters and 4 instructors, two of whom were new to instructing and didn’t seem to get all that involved in helping individual shooters (at least not that I noticed). The second one was not paced nearly as well, the history segments didn’t flow quite as well, and I am not sure I would have gone to another one if this had been my first.
I also think it isn’t the ideal place to take someone who has never fired a rifle before — becoming comfortable with the operation of a rifle and how to fix common problems takes more than two days, but that said you can’t beat 2 days of training for $150 (total cost for a male/female couple including rimfire ammo, gas and camping)!
Come again, thanks for the write up and the thoughtful comments. I taught some rifle in the Army as a Drill Sergeant, shot a little here and there, am a Life Member of the NRA and I have taught more civilians how to shoot with Appleseed than I ever did anywhere else. For two days, volunteer labor and cheap I find more to praise than anything else in Appleseed. And to become part of the solution, for whatever you found fault with in Appleseed, shoot the Rifleman score, take up the IIT orange cap and help make the program better, your own blog is helpful, and your comments on the forum would be read with interest – but you have been linked. It was interesting meeting you, didn’t recognize you without your mug. See you on the range somewhere. Earl
Hey Earl, thanks for stopping by! I was wondering if I’d run into you in the blogosphere, after our chat. :)
I think one thing we can certainly all agree on, even if we differ in opinion over the actual course of instruction, is the Appleseed is a whole ‘lotta bang for the buck. Certainly even moreso for women and the <21 crowd.
Perhaps you can answer a question for me: Is the Appleseed Program flexible enough for someone with my ideas to actually be part of the solution? I’m certainly not asking to come in and change everything, but while I, too, have heard a lot of praise for Appleseed, I’ve also found I’m not the only one talking about the tempo or other challenges. I could be interested in eventually participating as an instructor if there is some way I would be able to help people work through that, but it seems like the tempo is rather fixed and there isn’t much of a way around it. Please, correct me if I’m wrong, and/or let me know if there’s any “official” discussion about slowing things down or – as I heard suggested elsewhere – introducing maybe a Level 1 and Level 2 Appleseed, or something along those lines.
One way or another, I’m interested in helping to troubleshoot this aspect of the program to make it more friendly to even more people. Feel free to pass this link around; I didn’t want to post it on the Appleseed forum as I wasn’t sure if it would be well-received there, but I will join up and make contact with some folks.
Thanks again. I have a feeling we will indeed see each other again. :)
Don’t know for sure about changing much, although as I look back at my own time with Appleseed, it does change slowly for many reasons, but then it doesn’t change at all in the greater sense. People learn to shoot better than they did, they learn more detail about April 19, 1775 than most of them knew – and that they as committed individuals can step up and make a difference in Appleseed and their community. I did get my Firearms Acadeny of Seattle, Inc flyer — and some of their courses look interesting, but the cost is like deciding to buy a MAC instead of a PC, and I think the MAC is better, but I have three PCs. I am going with RWVA and a Rifleman’s Boot Camp in Montana for long distance shooting this year. I took the defensive Shotgun with the Academy, good course.
That and “ricockulous”… Are you sure I didn’t know you in a past life?
I may be a first-time commenter here, I don’t remember as I’m old and can’t remember shit.
After reading the post and comments I have to tell all of you I was laughing my ass off almost all the time I was reading.
Not at you…so to speak, but just at the fact that this stuff is going on today just like it did forty or so years ago. Yea, us ol’ folks had programs like this back then. Not so fancy or the wide range of weapons but almost the same as far as it goes.
I have a little advice. Take it or leave it. Just remember it comes from somebody who has been there and done that more than once.
Teaching people (of different skill levels and comprehension levels) anything, especially techincal and skill driven) how to do something is not as simple as it sounds or is.
Be it shooting or building a house.
If you don’t design your instruction to accommodate these different skill levels,learning speeds and varying comprehension levels…you are going to have a half assed’ program and your going to be shooting yourself in the ass and denying your potential students the instruction, which they really need to get.
I could go into a multiple page rant about my experiences over my long life concerning weapons training. Lucky for you that I will spare you all of that.
Laurel has brought up really good points and ideas. But getting by the ol’ guard is going to be tough. But don’t worry, soon they will all be out to pasture and just only able to sit around the table, drinking, bitching and telling you how it “used to be”.
Just like me.
HA…
Papa Ray
West Texas
Every organization needs constructive criticism, Appleseed included.
However…
I was there, and Laurel… you were not a particularly good shooter. Have you ever considered sticking with the plan and learning something rather than attempting to impress us how you know everything… about everything?
If you want to learn how to shoot, Appleseed is a great program. I attend annually to keep my skills up. I have been told by men I trust that this is possibly the best civilian run program available today from ANY organization, including NRA. I have attended along active duty military. You know what… those who treat the program with their own self-inflated egos see it as a waste of time. Just like you, they learn nothing. But those who take things seriously, those who PAY ATTENTION and follow instruction and work hard… they become riflemen, and better shooters.
It’s like computers… garbage in, garbage out.
Until you can outshoot the instructors and many of the participants, you should probably keep it to yourself. I’m not quite sure what your agenda is, but regarding Appleseed, you are 100% wrong.
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Laurel thanks so much for posting your Comments about your Appleseed experience. I am a first time reader and commenter on this site (I was directed here by a thread (in the instructors After Action Report) on the Appleseed forum).
I became involved as a shooter with AS in March and am now an instructor. As an instructor I am always looking for ways to improve the AS I run, I can only look at it from my own experiences and from what I observe at AS I instruct or attend, so getting input from shooters can help make me a better instructor.
A few comments that I have.
1. Pace: There is a lot to cover in an Appleseed and many people will say that it is like drinking from a firehose. There are certain things that must be covered in the Sat portion of the shoot so that shooters have the building blocks to go home and continue practicing. But, if shooters are “getting it” then more time should be spent on that aspect, if that means you don’t get to an AQT on Saturday so be it.
I was a new shooter at my first AS, and i struggled with many things but I also asked a lot of questions when I didn’t understand and asked for help on the line. i was lucky that I had a small line to shoot on because we got a lot of one-on-one, this isn’t always possible with the larger shoots. My suggestion is ask questions, as instructors we don’t know you don’t understand if you don’t tell us.
2. Why we recc the .22: In my own opinion, as a new shooter I think that learning on a .22 can be very beneficial because the is almost no recoil and you can shoot the thing all day with little jarring to the body. For people who have been shooting awhile I like to recc to bring both the .22 and the center fire, start with the .22 and then transition to the center fire after the initial instruction. No need to waste ammo learning a new way, wait until you learned it then try it on the center fire (all the skills carry over). That said, there is nothing wrong with shooting the whole Appleseed on a center fire.
I as an instructor am trying to become more familiar with many types of rifles so that I can assist all different shooters but sometimes I have to rely on another instructor or shooter for ones I am not familiar with (and being in California means I mostly see .22s).
3. 6 o’clock hold vs. center of target. In the AS program we teach 6 o’clock hold for iron sights as it is repeatable. There is very little color variations between an iron front sight and a black target, so if you hold the front post just under the target it is a very repeatable position; for the 1-inch squares at 25m your point of impact will be 2 MOA higher (.5in) than your point of aim. This 2 MOA carries over into full distance shooting as well.
4. Transitions with mags on the mat: In AS we do an unloaded transition for safety reasons. When the program first started transitions were done with the rifles loaded and put on safe, but due to muzzle sweeps and foresight of a potentially hazardous condition this was changed to an unloaded transition and 5 seconds was added to those courses of fire to account for loaded the magazine into the rifle.
5. Rapid Fire vs. Slow Fire: I understand what you are saying about shooting 5 rounds in 5 minutes and making them all vs shooting 5 rounds in 1min and making none. The idea with rapid fire (rifleman’s cadence – 1 well placed round every 2-3 secs)is that there is a rhythm to the shooting. First the shooter must build a stable position (no muscling), then find their natural point of aim NPOA (where the relaxed body wants to place the shot), place the NPOA on the target; once the NPOA is found and has been placed on the target there is no more adjustments needed, since you are in position and ready to fire there is no need to take a lot of time to fire the rounds, take one shot for each breath, trusting that you have placed your NPOA on the target. With center fire rifles (more than .22s) after the shot you should check to make sure the recoil hasn’t knocked your NPOA off target. If a person is taking a lot of time to take the shot they are either fussing the shot (making lots of tiny adjustments), or they have not gotten their NPOA on the target properly. It is best to spend the time to make sure that NPOA is on target, then trust it and shoot each shot in cadence/rhythm than it is to make a lot of adjustments between every shot.
Appleseed is not the only way to learn how to shoot but I believe that the Appleseed program does a great job of teaching the fundamentals (building a stable position, 6 steps of firing the shot, natural point of aim, rifleman’s cadence) of rifle training in a short period of time. I have talked to many people who have gone to other rifle training classes first and then Appleseed and have said that they missed out on a lot because they didn’t have the basic understanding of things that Appleseed teaches.
Thank you again for the comments, I hope the above helps in some way. As an instructor I will definitely try to read the shooters at future AS better and not move on before they are ready. I like your idea of having a guided fire by the #’s time, and dedicated rifle adjusting time. Also the comment from what another commenter said about explaining why we are teaching a certain task before, teaching it, and then re-enforcing it after. I am always interested in gaining more insight from our participants so that the program can be improved. I want every shooter going home feeling that they have improved and learned something they can continue practicing.
Hello. USAGI here, the one and same as referenced in this publication.
GREAT analysis. Laurel’s experience mirrors my own. A couple of points to that effect:
First-
Appleseed is a great program. It is not perfect. A few fixes and it would be as close to perfect as possible to the new shooters they try to reach out to.
NOTE: I have spoken to several shoot bosses with the program, and all of them wish Appleseed would change, much like Laurel suggests. However, those in authority seem a bit reluctant to change. Furthermore, many of the Appleseed zombies out there cannot tolerate any criticism of their product – constructive or otherwise.
Second-
For all its merits, Appleseed makes some mistakes in the marketing of its product.
1. Appleseed markets to brand new shooters. Appleseed shooters should have shot a few times with the exact rifle they will use prior to attending.
2. Appleseed markets itself as a “run what you brung” event. Due to the tempo, mag changes, and some other factors in the training, Appleseed IS NOT a run what you brung event. Do yourself a favor – bring a semi-auto .22 LR (best choices are 10/22, Marlin 795 or 60). Those with imperfect eyesight should bring a scope. Sight in the rifle with the same ammo before the event.
3. The sling use makes Appleseed more geared toward the sport shooter. No modern military teaches sling use like this as it is antiquated and rarely used in actual combat. Heck, even when it was used (my father’s generation and his father’s generation) the sling was almost never used in combat then, either. Therefore, take the sling instruction for what it is – use of the sling will tighten up your groups, but it is not anything near what you would use in 99.99% of actual combat situations.
As a clarification to one statement made in this excellent article – I have been a martial arts intructor for over 25 years (unarmed). I have also been a shooter for over 25 years. However, outside of family and close friends, I have never taught any sort of marksmanship. However, teaching is teaching!
Usagi
Tennessee.
Bonnie and I went to an Appleseed in November. It was interesting, positive and we learned a lot about the Revolutionary war. Between shooting sets, we had a story telling time where they would tell us how the Brits and the colonists finally came to burn gunpowder against each other. That was all pretty neat.
We have been match shooters for about 7 years and knew what to expect.
On the down side, Bonnie and I are experienced shooters so we pretty well knew what to do. I felt bad for some of the Dads who brought their kids. The program is VERY fast paced and anyone who doesn’t pick up the techniques immediately, gets left behind.
One kid was about 10 years old and we seldom saw him hit the target backing cardboard. They just left him to fail. I heard him say repeatedly to his Dad [B]“I want to go home”[/B] and I don’t blame him a bit. His Dad tried to help him but he was also trying to keep up with his own shooting.
There are two minute prep times for about 60 second stages. The two minutes started from the point of our huddle meetings. If you were out on the end of the firing line, you had about a minute to prepare. There were no breaks and if you went to the potty, you’d miss something.
Our first day was 9 hours long with a snatch as you can lunch. We were sunburned, broiled and dehydrated. The cost? Guys pay about $40/day. Women are free. There was a $10/day per person range fee.
Summed up, If you are a great shooter, know it all and want some pointers to make some improvements, the Appleseed will work. If you are experienced, YOUNG, and can drop from standing into positions without effort, you’ll be fine. If you are less experienced in position shooting or OLD (like Bonnie & I) you will have a heck of a time keeping up or shooting well. They will cut no slack and if you are going to fail, you will fail.
I am a teacher with 22 years experience. I believe that if they would coach the students until they achieved mastery, everyone would be better off. Don’t move on until everyone gets it right. and if additional coaching is needed, then provide that. That’s how it should have been done. That is NOT what happened.
I wanted to attend an Appleseed for years and have read Fred’s articles for a very long time. Now, after our experiences, I simply cannot support them.
Flash
Most of the time, I – like most folks – rather like having people agree with me. But this is one area in which I think it’s a real bummer that I’m not alone – Appleseed has (had?) such potential. :(
Flash,
You summed it up better than I could have.
If Appleseed would drop (or extend) the timed portion, that would be the single biggest improvement they could make. I say that, and I absolutely LOVED the timed portion. Heck, I have trained outside of Appleseed (with one of their better instructors in my state – TN), and played around with their new instructor-level timed event (4 minutes total, 10 shots each standing and sitting, 20 shots prone) and had a blast… and shot near rifleman doing so.
The second biggest thing Appleseed should do is drop the sling use. Teach the three positions, and for the fourth line down on the AQT, use supported prone (bipod or some other support).
Make no mistake, the thing that will kill Appleseed is the timed shooting. Most folks simply cannot do that from my observation.
[...] http://www.politicsgunsandbeer.com/2009/11/30/appleseed-part-the-second/ [...]
I posted about Appleseed in December. I agree with everything that you said in your evaluation and stand by everything I said in my post above. There is more to the story, however!
I happened to wander into a discussion about Appleseed in a Forum that I post in regularly. I picked up the thread, posted my observations as an educator with a Masters Degree in Technical Education and 22 years teaching experience. When responses were posted, I answered with the truth about what I saw under the guise of “instruction.”
I was set upon my Appleseed folks without mercy! I was even attacked by folks who joined the forum for the purpose of discrediting me. It’s pretty obvious what is happening when a guy with 2 posts on record, opens up a salvo on you for expressing an opinion based experiences at Appleseed!
I was called a “whiner” and a “crybaby”. They said I was inaccurate, biased ignorant and “full of myself”, told to “get over it” and much more. Most posts started out the same way: “I’m sorry that you had a bad experience at an Appleseed but……… then tore into me.
I would not back off, would not be silent and responded to every post. They KNEW that I wasn’t going to run or be shut down! Finally, two officials in the AS organization contacted me by PM and attempted to quiet me. I called their bluff and challenged why they were contacting me. Both admitted that they came to the forum because I fussed about the Appleseed we attended.
In short, if you complain about the Appleseed organization or one of their events, they will launch an organized, systematic, personal attack on you. They will use every possible mode of attack to quiet and discredit those who criticize the organization.
That is dangerous and NOT what this country is about! Appleseed claims to love liberty, free speech and diversity until it differs with their position.
I am free of Appleseed and intend to stay that way!
Flash
I, for one, have taken action. This past weekend, I shot Rifleman (first AQT – no sling, no scope, bulk ammo, tube-fed rifle) and accepted an Orange Hat. My intentions are simple – I hope the organization will be more accepting of new ideas from an insider.
Follow my blog, and I’ll keep you updated: http://www.usagidojo.blogspot.com
USAGI
The one and only.